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Today we are joined by Janice Sutherland, CEO of the award-winning leadership and personal development consultancy Sutherland Coaching and Consulting and author of This Woman Can: The No Bullshit Guide to Women who Lead. With over 25 years of experience in leadership and developing future women leaders, join us as we learn from the first Woman CEO in Antigua and Barbuda’s history as she helps us recognize the leadership qualities that reside in each of us.

Here’s a secret about leadership: leadership can’t be learned in a book or a degree program. It is something that can be developed though. Janice Sutherlands lays the truth on the table and helps us learn how to cultivate our skills, how to advocate for ourselves, and how to know your worth. She also reminds us to ask for feedback to grow. Asking for guidance is not a weakness; it helps you get better. Janice’s story of leaving the corporate work world led her on a year sabbatical where she discovered that she knew her calling all along: she could coach women on how to seek leadership positions and how to be successful at doing so. Janice shares her wisdom with us and gives us the chips to bet on ourselves.

Today’s show will cover:

How to be your authentic self

How to learn leadership skills

Ways to improve your self-talk
Things you can do to boost your confidence
How tomake your network work for you.
How to ask for what you want

Where to find Janice Sutherland: Website | Podcast | Coaching

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Transcript Below:

00:00:06 April Grant
 Hello. Hello. Hello. Welcome to another episode of the other side of 40. Today we have a Janice Sutherland who is the CEO of the award winning leadership and personal development consultancy. Sutherland coaching and consulting.

00:00:23 April Grant
 Janice’s professional career has spanned over 25 years of leadership with prestigious multi nationals in the UK and Caribbean, and she has made history when she became the first female CEO in the telecom sector in her ancestral home of Antigua, M. Barber Barbuda. She now focuses her work on developing future female leaders, helping them to create strategies to advance their careers and develop the confidence, president presence and influence. They need to drive through leadership barriers and confidently navigate the boardroom coaching women across the globe. She is the author of international bestseller This Woman Cam, the No Bullshit Guide for Women who Lead and the host of this woman can podcast sharing the leadership journeys of Korea, Caribbean and Dyas for women.

00:01:20 April Grant
 Janice also

00:01:22 April Grant
 is also a sought after keynote presenter for corporate and nonprofit environment and speaks on issues relating to leadership, women’s advancement, professional success and work life alignment. Whoa, that is a lot to get through. So We’re going to see how much of that we could talk about today. It won’t be everything, but we’ll get started. Um, as I always start out with. What is your awakening moment?

00:01:49 Janice Sutherland
 Well, past 40 A lot happened to pass 48 4, but if I had to pick one pivotal moment, it would have Bean just after my 50th, just after my 50th birthday and I was going through our own, says my own internal transit transition transformation. Unbeknownst to may, should I should I say, Andi? I remember being working Andi. I managed to island. I managed to locations to island. So it’s in the US on this other second island monster at, and I worked walking down the road and I start crying.

00:02:23 Janice Sutherland
 Andi, I start crying because I had the sun realization that something that happened to me in my past was something that had been holed. I never really admitted and spoken about openly.

00:02:34 Janice Sutherland
 Andi. I realized once I relinquished, relinquished that that thought that I could do whatever I wanted to dio on. But that was probably my awakening moment, and that’s when I decided to leave the corporate world, start my plans to leave the corporate world, aunt to establish my own business at the height of my corporate Korea, probably people would say,

00:02:56 April Grant
 Wow, are you open to sharing what that history is?

00:03:01 Janice Sutherland
 Yeah, I suppose it was admitting

00:03:06 Janice Sutherland
 I had had a bad relation. Bad first marriage, a bad first marriage, very bad first marriage and all the all the terms that goes with it. Andi, I realized that I’ve been probably harboring.

00:03:18 Janice Sutherland
 Um,

00:03:20 Janice Sutherland
 yeah, probably. Revenge is made of the word revenge. Maybe wanted revenge. Didn’t think that the individual hey had paid, paid, proverbial paid for what had happened. What had done to me, you know, in life had never apologized as far as I was concerned. So I was waiting for this. Almost waited this physical bolt of lightning to strike him, strike them down.

00:03:44 Janice Sutherland
 Andi, When I realized I was having a conversation, I had a coach. At that point. Andi, she was she was like, isn’t the fact that you have become this person? The CEO you’ve scaled of those scaled all those heights

00:03:58 Janice Sutherland
 in spite of him

00:04:00 Janice Sutherland
 isn’t the revenge, you know, it was like shoot.

00:04:06 Janice Sutherland
 I’m being polite there. That’s probably, you know, Oh, yeah, that is when I realized, like, Wow, I’ve only done it already. Yeah, I already have that. I didn’t have it. Didn’t have to be physical. You had already done it. You’ve got to where you are despite off,

00:04:22 Janice Sutherland
 you know? So I think that’s

00:04:25 Janice Sutherland
 that’s where it is.

00:04:26 April Grant
 No, I I can imagine that you have so much pent up frustration and anger that you want to prove this person wrong and you don’t even think about what you’re already doing is proving them

00:04:38 Janice Sutherland
 wrong and you don’t even know you want. You don’t. You’re not even thinking that you want to do that. It’s not even a conscious, you know, you’re just doing what you’re doing on it was like this whole shoot shit.

00:04:51 Janice Sutherland
 Yeah, you know, So once that I was already I was already at the top of my game anyway, And then you think and then you start thinking, Well, where could I have bean if I hadn’t had those thoughts, but inspired the bites done that?

00:05:06 April Grant
 Yeah. You don’t wanna You don’t want to think about what could have happened. You’re gonna well, on your way.

00:05:12 Janice Sutherland
 I’ve got a fabulous life. You know, so I can’t complain at all.

00:05:16 April Grant
 So where did that take you? So you said you started your own thing. What?

00:05:21 April Grant
 What was it? And how did it relate to your previous position?

00:05:25 Janice Sutherland
 So what I did after that was realized I was gonna have this. What? I called my Johnny’s 2020 plan. It’s really I really ironic that we’re now in 2020. So this is my 50th birthday. I’m kidding. To 56 now, Andi, I had this five year plan that, you know, Johnny’s 2020 or this is gonna happen. I’m gonna live in the corporate, blah, blah, blah. And when I had that realize ation, I realized I can’t do five years. I cannot physically do five years of doing this. So I spokesman had a long chat. My husband about what I was, how I was feeling because I didn’t realize how I was feeling unhappy anyway, incorporate the work I was doing. You don’t probably menopausal ous. Well, to be honest, when I think about it, a lot was happening at work. Andi, I suddenly realized I don’t want to be doing this. Is this it?

00:06:14 Janice Sutherland
 Is this going to be hit for how many years? This This can’t be it. So I had a chat, my hustle, about how I was feeling, you know, I’d see him happy, trotting off to work in his own business. All smiles and I’m, like, miserable, you know? So So we’d have this conversation said, Look, you’ve already done this. You been doing this for seven years? You know, you’ve You’ve worked. We never came here to work this hard for somebody else. We’ve always had this plan of doing our own business on. You helped me create my business. It’s your turn now, So that’s when I decided. Well, that’s it. So I gave my company six months notice because we were going through a restructure. I didn’t want Thio. I’ve learned a lot of this team and stuff. We worked closely together, was a restructure. I want to see the restructure through, but I made it clear that the end of it it wasn’t where I wanted to go with you in this organization.

00:07:07 Janice Sutherland
 It was already the longest started work to any organizations. Like always, 24 years probably moved on. Yeah, so I thought I’d done my bed. Onda then I made my plan and I’ll say planning tentative and air quotes because I didn’t really have a plan other than I didn’t want to do this anymore. S o U S O S o. We parted ways was very amicable, you know, it was great. I still live on the island, so you know. So I see all the seal might see my team regular CP from the team regularly.

00:07:39 Janice Sutherland
 Andi, I almost went to my almost kind of kind of say, it’s my vision quest Maybe, but I ended up taking a year out because what I also realized is that I had worked in the corporate world for 30 years. That’s all I have known. I didn’t know how else to work.

00:07:57 Janice Sutherland
 So there was this discombobulation, this disconnect as to what do I do on again? My coach pointed out to may. Well, Janice, you’ve done this for 30 odd years. You’re not going to You’re not going to get out of your system overnight. It’s a process. So I went to that process, I said, So let me take a year at May. I I could do that. Let me take you here because I haven’t again. All my plan was like financial. I’m going to support myself and my husband pointed out, You’ve done all right. There’s nothing to buy on the island. You pretty much banked all your salary. You know? You know, there’s no there’s nothing to do with it. So I took a year out. I went to Miami for a week on my own. Basically, some friends

00:08:38 Janice Sutherland
 took some time for myself, wrote my book. This woman can I’d started the podcast already. This woman, Canas. Well, so I just really played and found, um, or creative side things I hadn’t tapped him to before because I was always in this corporate bubble, this corporate mold, even though I was using those skills in a different way. Yeah, from my when I look at creativity, I always have a guy, The mindset, Andi. I had that creativity in the corporate world because I have to call the solutions very quickly, So it didn’t have to look pretty, but it had to work, you know? So there was always that mindset. So I took that year at really just to find

00:09:18 Janice Sutherland
 where I wanted to do what I want to go I was, I was avoiding leadership. I was avoiding leadership, like the plagues. I didn’t I said, That’s what I’ve done all the time. I must be able to do something different. But everything co kept coming back to that leadership. It’s what I knew. It’s what women asked me about. It’s what I was passionate about is what I wrote the book about. I was pretty much born a leader because I’m the oldest of six Children, you know. So it was ingrained. So then it was a process of How do I take my knowledge, what I know and how do I share it and who do I want to share it with?

00:09:51 April Grant
 Mm, So leadership, leadership, leadership. So you help women lead. Where do you Where do you start in this journey when you’re coaching women?

00:10:04 Janice Sutherland
 The thing I love about leadership is that many people, lots of people think if I pick up a book and I go to university and I take this pro, take this complex, this product, this program I can lead and it’s not like that. Leadership is very, very mental, especially for women, because we have been conditioned, maybe not to be in that space s so it’s really about breaking or in the nicest possible term, breaking all that conditioning, you know, improving your confidence over your overcoming imposter syndrome. You know, navigating your limiting beliefs. It’s not that they ever go away. It’s just that, you know, you can recognize them and you have the tools in which to overcome them when you feel it. I think I just wrote a post about this week, but may feel a little overwhelmed and what I did because normally sometimes you sitting again. Oh, my gosh, you procrastinate. Nothing gets done. But I recognized I was spinning it. Overwhelmed, I thought. Okay, what do I need to do? What? What works?

00:11:04 Janice Sutherland
 Take that step back, Do the reflection, take a couple of quick steps and then come back. Come back. So So when I work with leadership, it’s about I like to work, like called the underbelly of leadership. The things you don’t see on the surface. So you know, you could be you could be the corporate on the top of the top of your game, but no one knows that you left a bunch of screaming kids at home and her husband is really miserable. You know, when you walk into that office, there’s still the things you have to deal with. The things you have to navigate that mom guilt, you know, you know, you know when you have to do this work. And I don’t say

00:11:39 Janice Sutherland
 I don’t talk about work life balance because I think it’s a fallacy doesn’t exist. What we have to find is I call work life integration. So where can I fit? Where can I?

00:11:50 Janice Sutherland
 There’s gonna be some overlap. Accept it.

00:11:53 Janice Sutherland
 You know you know you. You cannot be there 24 7 for your chip for your Children. But you can have quality moments on. Make sure you’re in that moment when you’re with your child, you know? So it’s really about It’s really about doing that and finding what works best for you. So that’s where I start with the leadership. So it’s talking with the women and having that sounding board to say, you know, sometimes we don’t I tell people people understand it. It’s very lonely at the top when you get there, because there’s very few people you can talk Thio because as the leader, people assume you should know it all because after all, that’s how you got there. You know what you mean you’re struggling with this, so you have to have that sounding board some who won’t judge you, Who will say Okay, get out of your feeling. Sometimes it’s a feeling. And what makes you feel like that? You know, what have you done? What have you done that disproves how you’re feeling, what you’re thinking right now. So it’s really just that sounding board. And that is all part of leadership. Because we don’t wake up thinking I’m going to be a leader. It doesn’t happen. Well,

00:12:55 April Grant
 I mean, I think there’s a couple of things. So we talk actually a lot about unlearning just in general on this, uh, show. Because once we get to a certain age, I think we kind of realized all the good things that we learned and all the bad things that we learned and how some of the, um, programming has been detrimental to us. Eso in my case specifically, You know, I

00:13:23 April Grant
 I was raised that I needed to kind of be a perfection perfectionist, that I had to do everything correctly. I had to be responsible for everything I needed to be that person to turn to. And that weighs on you, especially as you get older. Because then your responsibilities as a child are less than they are when they’re an adult. So when you when you’re young, it’s not so big of a deal because you’re just like, Oh, no big deal. You know, I can carry my grades and that, you know, I’ll grade in sports or, you know, on my clubs. But then when you start compounding that with ah spouse Ah, house kids

00:14:00 April Grant
 Ah, job. You know, it becomes overwhelming and it just feels like this enormous pressure that you cannot get from under. Yeah, And so we talk a lot about and then even even on the perfectionist or relationships how we deal with our relationships A nun programming and reprogramming positive, uh, thoughts and feelings into situation because, you know, a lot of situations we looked at at growing up. We’re not great. You know, You looked around. I we don’t have a lot of like in my sphere. I don’t see a lot of growing up. I did not see a lot of happy married couples and, you know, And when you thought they were happy, it was like the book dropped and they got divorced. It was like, Wait, I thought you guys were doing great or you find out someone’s cheating been cheating on their spouse for years. And the wife just kind of, Well, I’d rather be carried and then single. And you realize how people are just like dealing with stuff instead of, um, not dealing with it, settling for things and actually dealing with it, confronting it and choosing their happy life. So, um,

00:15:15 April Grant
 reprogramming is

00:15:18 April Grant
 definitely necessary for most of us. Andi Leadership it just like you said. Uh, you know, there’s What was the name? Sand. Uh oh, of course I forgot her name. Head of Facebook.

00:15:31 April Grant
 Uh, Cheryl Sandberg. E. Read her book. Lean in and you know, she talked about If there’s no tape, no seat at the table, pull up a chair as opposed to sitting on the wall, because you know, that’s what we’re typically used to doing. Like if there’s no seats, we’ll just sit against the wall will be quiet. And, you know, she’s like, no, pull up a chair to the table, move some people over and sit there so you could be part of the conversation and not an on looker.

00:15:58 April Grant
 And I think

00:16:00 April Grant
 as women, we’re just taught Thio, you know, sit down the side and let the men take the lead, and we’ll just

00:16:06 April Grant
 well, just listen.

00:16:08 Janice Sutherland
 I think I kind of tackle that really early on before even before my forties, because because of this relation had on, I then realized there’s things I could do. It kinda had married very young eso, though I hadn’t really grown a grown up. But I was too adult, probably too early, if that makes sense, once I’d had so once I had my Children and I reflected where I want to go. I realized where where I wasn’t right now. So what could I do, Seo to move myself forward? I went back to university that has a mature student. I did what I took two degrees Well, three degrees in the two degrees in the Masters. So you know als the time while I have had the voice to set that set. That example. And then I also realized

00:16:55 Janice Sutherland
 I started dating on, then realized this isn’t for May in the way that I think we have. Sometimes we’re looking for what we want when I actually think what we should be looking at is what we don’t want.

00:17:08 Janice Sutherland
 Okay, So when I realized what I don’t want and you’re you’re exhibiting all the things I don’t want, I’m good. You know, I’m good. I’m out on. Then I was, you know, and then I would realize I wasn’t looking. I then met my now husband is just what, 16 17 years ago on DWI just clicked. And I was at that point, I was always told myself I’m not prepared to compromise, You know, in that respect that, you know, I’m happy to give and take, and I wanna be a relationship. But, you know, I don’t want to be contained who I am. So the thing we loved about each other is the fact that we take each other for who we are, not what we think we want them to be.

00:17:48 April Grant
 Well, I mean, I would say for so I’ve been married to my husband for 13 years, but we’ve been together about 18. Yeah, about 18 years. And one of the one question that I remember that set out the most out of all the premarital counseling. Waas. If your husband, if he would never change, could you stay with him? And I think that’s really it was the most important question because it made me realize that it’s not my job to try to change him. It is not my job to try to grow him. It’s not my job to invest in potential. And that was really the only question out of all of them that really I was like, I don’t have an answer. I’m gonna have to come back to you next week and it may not be next week and maybe week after this is really what I want to deal with for the rest of my life because the whole goal, obviously for most of us, is to get married and stay married. Um, it’s

00:18:45 Janice Sutherland
 not job to make you happy.

00:18:47 April Grant
 No, and it’s not his job to make me happy. Yes, and that was one of the things. So as we um

00:18:55 April Grant
 as we got our counseling and I talked to other women. See, I have a little different opinion, but I it’s for the same reason, so I’m big on red flags. I’m huge on red flags. If you see a red flag when you’re dating,

00:19:10 April Grant
 if it’s in the first year of dating and you see a red flag, I’m out. I’m out because there’s no. The first year is supposed to be the honeymoon period. And if they can’t do what you need them to do or be the person they want you to be, or, I mean, if they’re not the person you want them to be in that first year, they’re not. It’s not gonna get better. It’s not going to change because this is the time that they’re supposed to be,

00:19:33 April Grant
 you know, recording you. Yeah, being on their best behavior and their best behavior, as were it flags eso. In my case, I actually did write a list of things I wanted, and so I’m It was a list of 25 things. Um,

00:19:50 April Grant
 my husband had to be 24. Happened to be 24 of those, um, but it was very they weren’t superficial. I mean, there are a couple of superficial things you can’t get out of that, but, um, but most of them were like about their character. It was about, you know, trust, respect, loyalty. Um, hardworking. And I see some people, you know, they have their list, and it’s like they got to be good looking and tall, and I’m like, can’t build a marriage off a good looking at

00:20:20 Janice Sutherland
 all. It is a shrinking these and any

00:20:24 April Grant
 shrivels. So the streak, they gain weight. They, uh you know, they may not take care of that. There may just be a season that they don’t take care of themselves, and it’s not purposeful. But, you know, all that stuff is going to go away, and you can’t. If you don’t have the other character bases, then you don’t really find the

00:20:45 April Grant
 You don’t find them attractive anymore because you’re looking at the exterior. Yeah, the superficial. So, um

00:20:54 April Grant
 yeah, but I’m definitely big on red flags and learning and knowing what those red flags are for you. So minds, physical abuse. I mean, there’s a bunch, but physical physical abuse is a huge one. Any any kind of verbal abuse? You controlling issues? Yeah. I can’t have you telling me where to do. I remember going on a date with one guy and At the end of the day, he’s like, I want to introduce you to my mom and I was like, Nope, too fast. Whoa, I was like, This is way too fast. I don’t know what’s going on. We just have date one

00:21:31 April Grant
 eso Um And for me, that was a red flag. I was like, You are already If you want to introduce me to Mom, we’re talking about a marriage and what? You’re already claiming me, and, you know, I’m not feeling that same way. So, um,

00:21:46 April Grant
 but paying attention is really key. But back Thio while you’re here about leadership, um,

00:21:55 April Grant
 what?

00:21:57 April Grant
 What do women need to tap into

00:21:59 April Grant
 To be their best Selves as a leader?

00:22:04 Janice Sutherland
 It sounds cliche, but it’s true on I would say authenticity, their authentic self.

00:22:11 Janice Sutherland
 It is really hard trying to lead, especially in challenging times and stuff like that when you are not who you naturally are, you know? So when you’re trying to have this facade and this give this impression of this is who I am, and it’s actually opposite to who you are on dure trying to lead a large team, you’re trying to face a crisis That’s a whole lot of work, you know, So leaning into your authenticity and embracing it, even if even if it’s not what you have seen, let me to share a story. When I was asked to be CEO off the company, the company here, the sector here

00:22:49 Janice Sutherland
 Andi, I resisted it because the only people I’ve ever seen in that role were pale male and stale. Yeah, the only the only thing I’ve ever seen that wrong. I tell people all the time and I remember saying to my boss, and he said to me, Janice, you should go for the wrong. I’m leaving. I’m going back going back home because all expats, you should take up the run and like, I can’t do that. I said, I seen how you guys need on if that’s how you want me to be. I can’t be that way on. This is a lot was going through my head and he said, China’s

00:23:20 Janice Sutherland
 just make it yours. Make it your own. And you know, that little thing is like, Oh, shit, yeah, Could kinda I’m the boss, you know? Right? Right.

00:23:29 Janice Sutherland
 That light bulb moment that said, Yeah, just make it my own because I was also cognizant because I’d always been kind of a second in command. E was always natural myself. I didn’t have to be this boss persona, you know? So when the my team knew me how they knew how to interact in May, I got things done and stuff like that. And I had this impression that if I now stepped up that level, I would have to be somebody else.

00:23:54 Janice Sutherland
 And I didn’t wanna be that somebody else. So having almost him saying and give myself permission to be who I am, you know, the team would say we thought you’d be different, but we’re really glad you’re not. That was brilliant because they did things for May. They would never do to anybody else because we have that relationship. They understood where they still do. Stood with may. We could converse. I could get down to their level. Or I could also be the boss when I had to do making difficult decisions they respected. That s O for May. It’s about being your authentic self. Not going to think about things all banded around. You get all this is Wu stuff, but it is about being true to who you are and leading leading from the heart from peep from people and putting yourself in. I realized I’m a people person. Didn’t think about it before, you know. But I’m always I’m always commenting. Okay

00:24:43 Janice Sutherland
 for me, for me to get them to do what I want to do. What would I How would I feel

00:24:48 Janice Sutherland
 and how do I get him to do it? And it’s not manipulation before people that you’re trying to do. Jedi mind tricks. It’s just about being cognizant. Okay, What would make it work for you? How can we find a common ground? You do understand if you can’t find a common ground, and I need to get this done, but I’m still gonna have to press ahead. You understand that, you know, So people know where they stand in its communication, and it’s clear there’s clarity. You can’t go wrong.

00:25:14 April Grant
 Well, I mean, I really liked that line that you just had of Give yourself permission to be you. Yeah, and I think a lot of us want Thio. We spend a lot of time looking at what other people do and how they do it. and we try to model that expectation. And it’s really an expectation in our head about what other people are wanting as opposed to what they’ve actually asked you to dio. Because if they asked you to be in a leadership roll, it’s because they like your type of leadership.

00:25:48 Janice Sutherland
 Yeah, I always tell, Tell women that Tell people that

00:25:53 Janice Sutherland
 organizations and you know, if you’re going through organizations don’t employ you

00:25:58 Janice Sutherland
 For them to fail in their business, they employ you because they see a quality, a skill that they need in their business. So you’re wanted. You have to wonder if you have to remember that, Understand? Understand that we don’t employ you to fail. That’s not in our interests. It’s not in our it’s expensive to recruit someone to train someone to get them to where they want to bay. It’s a long, arduous process. Eso We’re not bringing you in here to be a failure. We’re bringing in here. We’re bringing you here because we see a skill set that we need. And we see an experience that you can deliver.

00:26:32 April Grant
 Yeah. So, um, on that note, what

00:26:37 April Grant
 are there tools that women should work on besides being themselves to get them to the next, like what is kind of a general,

00:26:47 April Grant
 um, coaching pathway to get them to step into those leadership roles and become stronger leaders, Check

00:26:54 Janice Sutherland
 yourself. And by that I mean that I mean, the little voice in your shoulder in a mean girl that has that constant conversation with you about why you should be doing something or how you’re not good enough. Check. Put it in. Put her in check. It could be him for me. Toe meets a girl s. Oh, put it. Put her in check.

00:27:11 Janice Sutherland
 Remember? You know, if you’re in that position, remember why you’re there. All the things I said before, it’s because they identified a skill set and experience that you can bring to the table. Remember? Remember why you’re there. Remember why you’re there on another conversations, having somebody else in the day? Is that when you look I’ve been in a in a boardroom where I am the only black face around the only woman and stuff. Remember, we’ll put the same way,

00:27:38 Janice Sutherland
 you know? So let’s get a bit of grounding here, you know? You know you’re there. They’re not. They’re not special there, nothing there. Nothing there. Nothing special on. Then the other thing I would say on that side of the special is I tell women you’re not that special because we all suffer this me, myself and eye syndrome where we don’t talk to others. We keep it to ourselves because we don’t think anybody else understands has never been through it. Doesn’t know what I’m going through. But invariably, if you say to tap a woman next shoulder and say, Look, I’ve had this experience, what I’ve been through this they will say, Oh, yeah, I know that or I’ve been through that. And this is how I overcame it.

00:28:15 Janice Sutherland
 So tap into your network. Never be afraid to ask for what you want. Whether it’s support money promotion. Never be afraid to ask bread because it’s the only answer they give you back is no. You’re no worse off than when you started.

00:28:30 April Grant
 Okay?

00:28:32 April Grant
 No, that I don’t know. When I was younger, I had that That was innate in me. You know, I used to go. I mean, from

00:28:43 April Grant
 in every situation. I used to ask guys out myself and I used to go up to them or ask them to buy me a drink. And women would always, you know, my girlfriends like you can’t do that. And I was like, Why not? And I’m like the worst thing they’re going to say is no. And right now I’m standing on the side and not getting a drink and not not getting a date. And

00:29:04 April Grant
 that’s where I am anyway. So it doesn’t make me feel bad that they said no, because technically, I feel just as bad with him, not offering it themselves. So but I don’t know, as I’ve gotten older, maybe because I’ve had kids or something, I feel a lot more protected. And it’s so hard to just get out of that and really take back that strength of, like, I’m gonna take on the world and ask anybody, anything. Um,

00:29:30 April Grant
 besides, just do it because, honestly, that’s what it comes.

00:29:33 Janice Sutherland
 It’s a work in progress. How do

00:29:35 April Grant
 you work? How do you work through that, though? How do you get to that place

00:29:40 Janice Sutherland
 as I as I said it Z conflicts and inner confidence. It’s knowing it’s knowing your work, you know, know what you bring to the table on be cognisant and and, you know, and be comfortable hearing No,

00:29:51 Janice Sutherland
 be comfortable hearing. No, you’re not gonna be everybody’s cup of tea. You know, some people don’t Some people don’t. You know, that’s an English English thing. You know, dunking the biscuits and tea, but yeah, and some people and some people don’t you know, to don’t take it personal, you know? And I was to say there are 7.7 point eight billion people in the world right now. Someone’s gonna like what I’ve got to offer. Yeah, yeah, you know? Yeah. So it’s so it’s having that level and its own, and it’s owning. If you’ve got to a certain position, own it, you’ve got a certain level. Own it. Your experience, your quality. Own it. And don’t be afraid to show it. We’re taught not to brag, but it’s on a lady like, Yeah, but if you don’t talk about what you deliver, what you have, what you bring,

00:30:38 Janice Sutherland
 no one’s going to do it for you. And no one could do it better than you because you know what you want to be said about you. So own it. Own that dialogue.

00:30:48 April Grant
 Okay, Yeah. I mean, I agree. It’s hard.

00:30:52 Janice Sutherland
 I’m not saying it’s easier to take tiny steps. Eso every time you feel like you’re going to hesitate, hesitate how that conversation and say, If I do this, what’s the worst that could happen? You know what’s the worst that could happen? In any case, if they say no, Well, if they say no, I’m no worse off numbers before. If they say, maybe there’s a * in their armor And if they say yes Wow. You

00:31:15 April Grant
 know, you got what you

00:31:16 Janice Sutherland
 you know. So so you know, it’s a take baby steps. And don’t be don’t be afraid to last.

00:31:22 Janice Sutherland
 Yeah, what’s the worst that could happen?

00:31:24 April Grant
 What’s the worst that could happen? And I don’t know. I guess we just feel like the world is gonna implode if we if we get to know. And really, you’re just exactly where you were before you asked. Exactly,

00:31:35 Janice Sutherland
 Exactly. On at least you get to know, you know, where you stand on, you know, And then and then and then they said, No, you say okay, especially era. It maybe for an appraisal situation, for instance, you’re having a having a 1 to 1 stuff like mhm and you ask the questions. Someone says no. Well, what do I need to do to get their give me some guidance? You know, I’m not clear. What? Where am I lacking? What do I need to work on? You know, how do I get there? Can you How how? How can I get the help I need? Ask questions. It’s not facetious, especially. You’re talking to your boss, you know? That’s bad job.

00:32:11 Janice Sutherland
 Yeah, that’s their job is to develop you. Hands down. You know, they may not be that you may not think it’s in their job description, but it is because if if if they do, good, if if you do good, they look good, right?

00:32:24 Janice Sutherland
 So it’s It’s so it’s in there. It’s in there interested to develop you.

00:32:28 Janice Sutherland
 Mhm.

00:32:29 April Grant
 I never even thought about that at all. Being being developed by my boss, I end up often being, um,

00:32:38 April Grant
 left alone with my work. Eso

00:32:43 April Grant
 I get employed as a

00:32:48 April Grant
 as an employee, but I end up

00:32:50 April Grant
 typically not having a lot of guidance and having to figure a lot of things out myself.

00:32:56 April Grant
 Um, and I just end up getting these, like, niche positions where my boss really doesn’t know what I dio But I make them look good. Eso I keep getting employed, but they don’t really know what I do. But I keep, you know, you know, either growing the company or, um,

00:33:17 April Grant
 just shining in a way that they shine on.

00:33:21 Janice Sutherland
 But if you’re happy that if you’re happy with that, that’s great for you. But if you’re but in a situation where you’re not, then you have to ask that question. You know, it’s not always, you know, I think sometimes we’re going to rock some. We’re going to roll. And we have this meritocracy impression, these impressions meritocracy, that if I work hard, get my heart, get my head down, they’re going to notice Never. No, no, they’re not. Now they’re not. You have to put your head above the parapet. You have to put your hand up. You have to ask the questions. Be in control off your own destiny. That is always, you know, for May I want to be in control. Do you want some of control your future? Or do you want to control it for yourself?

00:33:59 April Grant
 Oh, I like controlling my own future. Which is why I took, uh, my my right turn s o. Do you have any remarks? Toe leave? Uh,

00:34:10 April Grant
 the listeners,

00:34:13 Janice Sutherland
 um, not such once. I think I’ve said a lot a lot, but I’ve also created my own online community for women and for women of color on its this woman can coach so in there, you know, if people can’t stretch to a coaches do the coaching. There’s lots of resource is free. Resource is in there for women, too. Looking imposter syndrome. How do I get ahead, Get some support, get instant tips network with the like, the community like minded women who are sharing the same things. This is one of my ways of kind of giving back and saying that we don’t You don’t have to go it alone. There’s resource is out there sometimes as well. Especially now. I think for May,

00:34:53 Janice Sutherland
 where we are now with all the black lives, matter, movement and stuff like that, it’s I’m 56 it’s a revelation how much I’m still thinking. Wow, I’ve shied away from saying some things because this was ingrained that you didn’t say like I would never have said the network. I would never have decided that what was for women.

00:35:11 Janice Sutherland
 I would talk to women of color and Caribbean women, but I never said it out loud. You know, I didn’t want to upset. Yeah, and when you check yourself, you’re thinking, Wow, that’s been ingrained for years, you know? But I know I’m proud. I’m proud. So I want women of color to take all the resource is that available to them and use them where them out to get where they need to get to it.

00:35:37 April Grant
 But that you’re, I mean, not particularly for work itself, but just being open and honest. I know with the whole movement going on now, I’ve been extremely vocal about my opinion because overall, I would describe myself as conservative. But what’s going on? I’m like,

00:35:57 April Grant
 If that’s conservative, that’s not what I want to be like. That’s what if that’s the direction you guys airheaded, I can’t I can’t do that. I would say up until 2016 I would have said, You know, I lean more Republican, I would say I voted more Republican than I ever did Democrat, But now I’m just like

00:36:16 April Grant
 I want to vote all the Republicans out, and I’m not afraid to say that I’m not before I was like, You know, I don’t want to see bias. I want to see neutral and I’m like, No, but not a step backward. And I don’t wanna go backward.

00:36:30 Janice Sutherland
 We’re not even I’m not even American and I am in the Caribbean on I’m watching, we’re watching and my husband I because obviously the US is very close for us. You’re like, No way. No way because you don’t know from a tourist walking down the road, you just see a black face. Yeah, well, like that’s not for us when No, that’s not

00:36:52 April Grant
 on the. And that’s just what you said right there is what people don’t. There are certain people. A lot of people are finally opening their eyes to it, but that’s what some people aren’t realizing. It’s like when you see when certain people see black people on the street, this is their reaction period. They don’t ask about where they’re from, what they did, how how much money they make. E. I was listening to ah, comedian. I think it was Alonzo Alonzo Bodden. I think that’s the same. Andi was talking about how you know he’s a very tall black man. I think he’s in his fifties now, and if he goes into a store of wealth, um, they always ask if he’s a basketball player. But then they also follow him around the store as if he is going to steal something. And then and then he’s like But you I don’t understand. You can’t have it both ways. If you think basketball player, you think I can afford it. But then you follow me around is if I’m going to steal it. Which one is it like, Can I afford it or am I going to steal it? But you guys want to do both of them all the time and it puts me on edge and I don’t feel comfortable in your store. So

00:38:02 April Grant
 it’s just It’s just so crazy and e don’t know what this election is going to

00:38:07 Janice Sutherland
 know and I have grown Children grown too grown black men.

00:38:11 Janice Sutherland
 I’m some talented and they’re in the UK and even that, you know, I’m fearful, so it’s a strange time. It’s strange times, but I’m really glad that

00:38:20 Janice Sutherland
 I didn’t realize. I think a lot of people are realizing how much they suppressed. Yeah. How much? We just got along. Yeah, you know, And now we’re being vocal, and I’m

00:38:30 Janice Sutherland
 hoping there is a change. Yeah, I mean, a little cynical. I’ll be honest. I’d be We’ve been here before.

00:38:37 April Grant
 Well, I don’t know if we’ve been here. See, I think in a weird way, Cove, it has changed the whole dynamic because it has forced people that, I mean, even my good natured white friends like, and I love them to death, and I would never even consider them racist. Um, but they’re opening their eyes to their privilege in things that they never had to even think about for the first time in their lives. Like, um, and I’m part of a couple of writers groups and one of the writers in there. She she said I wish people would get off my page telling me I can’t be, um, cheering for social justice. I’m tired of people coming here telling me what I could do with my own page, and it was just It was I mean, I just read it with kind of like a warm heart because I’m like, I don’t have to do the fight by myself anymore. And I don’t have to compete people anymore. That’s what we have to do. It was like half the reason we suppress it was

00:39:36 April Grant
 they didn’t understand and you would just talk in circles and they’re like, Yeah, whatever.

00:39:40 Janice Sutherland
 So treat just something. You never forget it. Forget it.

00:39:44 April Grant
 Yeah, I’ll suck it up. I’ve been sucking up for the last years like it suck it up some more now Other people are fighting the fight and they’re like, Well, how do you not get tired? I’m like I’m exhausted. It’s not not being tired, You’re exhausted. You just have to keep going. And now you know it’s the saying. More hands lighten the load, you know? So it’s like now that we have more people speaking, the more people supporting more people understanding.

00:40:12 April Grant
 It’s a lighter load for everyone, and we aren’t so exhausted Not to say we’re not, but we’re not so exhausted. I don’t have to fight every single fight because I have my friend over here who’s willing to jump in for me and take it over, and I could just kind of bow out. So I think I think this will be different. Um, and I think the way our current president is acting,

00:40:37 April Grant
 it feels like he wants it like, e don’t know what it is. It feels like he wants this to happen. So, like a straight revolution, I don’t know if it’s for good reasons or for bad reasons, but it feels like he wanted, because every time I turn around, he is doing something else that that takes the like, just stabs at us. It’s like, I don’t understand. Just you don’t have to say things like that. You could just not. Yeah, but instead you speak and stab. So, um,

00:41:12 April Grant
 it’s been interesting. Anyway, that took a interesting turn. Uh, well, how do people find you?

00:41:20 Janice Sutherland
 They can contact me on social media. So connecting Arlington. I am Janice Sutherland. Connect with May on Facebook. I am Johnny Sutherland on Twitter. It’s this woman can or head over to my If you want to join the group, head over to www dot this woman can dot coach to join the network or just search my name online. You’ll find May.

00:41:43 April Grant
 All right. Thank you so much. for coming on. This is such a great conversation. Um and have a great day.

00:41:50 Janice Sutherland
 Thank you. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

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